{"id":2683,"date":"2024-09-08T09:39:05","date_gmt":"2024-09-08T09:39:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/crimesofthecenturies.com\/?p=2683"},"modified":"2026-04-12T16:21:56","modified_gmt":"2026-04-12T15:21:56","slug":"grahams-of-cumberland-dna","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/crimesofthecenturies.com\/index.php\/2024\/09\/08\/grahams-of-cumberland-dna\/","title":{"rendered":"Grahams of Cumberland DNA"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>Grahams of Cumberland part 3: The DNA thing<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In <a href=\"https:\/\/crimesofthecenturies.com\/index.php\/2024\/08\/11\/grahams-of-cumberland-1\/\">part one<\/a>, I started out with \u2018my\u2019 John Graham, born c1750.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>While assuming we are descended from the border reiver Grahams, a couple of lovely relatives long wondered if there was any chance \u2018our Grahams\u2019 were connected somehow to the great names of Menteith and Montrose.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s a question many others have posed. &nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The possibilities<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Today\u2019s Cumbrian Grahams might be descended (variously) from:&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>the notorious reiver Lang Will<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Graham women whose husbands took the name because the Grahams were a stronger clan. Their offspring would be related to the women\u2019s brothers (etc), but have a different male-line ancestry.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>people who were tenants or poor neighbours and took the surname<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>the \u2018other sort\u2019 of Grahams already living on the border when Lang Will moved there<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p>Given today\u2019s Grahams could be any of the above:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Who were Lang Will\u2019s parents? &nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Was he related to the Menteith\/Montrose Grahams?<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Who were \u2018the other sort of Grahams\u2019?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">DNA<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>First of all, I don\u2019t really understand it. I\u2019m not a scientist.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I do have questions.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>1. If a living descendant of John Smith shares a DNA haplogroup thing with a 14thC John Smith whose body has been dug up and tested \u2013 does that mean ALL male living descendants will for sure have it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">I &#8211; M253 (etc)<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>More than 700 men with Graham parentage have taken part in a DNA study.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Men with confirmed descent from the Mentheith\/Montrose lines, and therefore (probably\/possibly) from William (1097-1139) all share something called I &#8211; M253.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>But Grahams whose known ancestors came originally from the Borders have J1-L1253.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Another \u2018big group\u2019 have R1b.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>And some don\u2019t have any of these. I think these have to be descendants of the tenants etc who took the name without being related.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">More than 700 test subjects&nbsp;<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>It sounds a lot, but is 700+ test subjects a really good sample, scientifically speaking?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In 1606, the King\u2019s commissioners sent:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>\u2018a list of 150 Grahams who have submitted themselves\u2026\u2019<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Not all of those were Grahams by birth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One man, born in 1540, having three sons by 1580 who each had three sons by 1620\u2026 a conservative calculation puts that at 60,049 men by 1940.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Could the JL lot all be descended from a family of brothers who took the name Graham?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Playing away<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>It would be naive to think all Graham wives were 100% faithful to their husbands.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Alicia Graham\u2019s <a href=\"https:\/\/books.google.co.uk\/books\/about\/The_Grahams_of_Pennsylvania_and_Virginia.html?id=bHTxzwEACAAJ&amp;redir_esc=y\">book<\/a> says:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>\u2018<em>researchers hope that the illegitimacy rates are low enough to allow the productive study of paternal lines\u2019<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019m not sure \u2018hope\u2019 is rigorously scientific!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If just one wife (either branch) sought comfort elsewhere, it could mean the whole Menteith\/Montrose male line differs from their Dalkeith line cousins.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Possibly, maybe<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>There are a lot of hazy \u2018reason to believes\u2019 guesses in the early history of the Menteith\/Montrose and Dalkeith lines.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It isn\u2019t even 100% certain that William (1097-1139) WAS the father of the two original branches.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Back to I &#8211; M253<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>This is a haplogroup, and it isn\u2019t it an \u2018exclusive Graham thing\u2019.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><em>There are 65,038 DNA tested descendants, and <\/em><strong><em>they specified<\/em><\/strong><em> that their earliest known origins are from: Sweden, England, United States, and 123 other countries.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/discover.familytreedna.com\/y-dna\/I-M253\/story\">Source<\/a><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>I-M253 is apparently found in 38-39% of Swedish men, 37% of Norwegian men, 34.8 of Danish men\u2026 you get the picture.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Questions<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>So, some confirmed descendants of the Menteith\/Montrose Grahams have I-M253.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The bulk of the Graham test subjects do not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Is it a given, after a thousand years, that all male descendants of William Graham (1097-1139, presumed father of the two original branches) would have I-M253?&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>What if William Graham wasn\u2019t Norman? There are other theories. And no cast-iron proof.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>What if a wife down one line \u2018played away\u2019?<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>What if Peter (Dalkeith branch) and Alan (Menteith\/Montose branch) weren\u2019t brothers, but related in some other way?<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">J1-L1253<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>As well as something about Neolithic goat-herders, J1-L1253 \u2018appears to be limited to Britain and Ireland\u2019.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>AND, crucially:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><em>its presence in modern testers from the British Isles is indicative of \u201cBorder reiver\u201d heritage<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/clangrahamsociety.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/09\/House-GRAHAM-eBook.pdf\">This book<\/a> continues that all this:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><strong><em>favours the idea <\/em><\/strong><em>that Lang Will was himself a J1.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And:&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><em>If the \u201cnoble Grahams\u201d belong to Y-haplogroup I1, then Lang Will cannot have been descended from the elder line of William de Grame.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Sort of convincing. Except \u2018favours the idea\u2019 isn\u2019t concrete proof (you\u2019d have to dig Lang Will up for that!).&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Plus the caveats I\u2019ve already raised.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">R1b<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>R1b: \u2018is the most common haplogroup in Western Europe, reaching over 80% of the population in Ireland, the Scottish Highlands, western Wales\u2026&#8217;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The book says:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><em>The (R1b) Grahams of Canonbie and Netherby cannot have been descendants (or blood relatives) of a J1 Lang Will.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>So either Lang Will wasn\u2019t J1 after all. OR the Netherby and Canonbie test subjects weren\u2019t related to him\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think it means the R1b lot were the \u2018other sort of Grahams\u2019 living on the English side of the border when Lang Will arrived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">However<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>As interesting as all this Syrian archer (don\u2019t ask!)\/Viking stuff is\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Lang Will Graham was of Mosskessen.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Earlier generations of Dalkeith Grahams (presumed descended from William) were of Mosskessen<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>In Elizabethan times, the Grahams of Montrose and Menteith considered the Border Grahams to be kinsmen. Via Lang Will, they \u2018<em>claimed interest of the service of all Grames as descended out of their houses.\u201d<\/em><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>When applying for arms, Lang Will\u2019s descendants claimed kin back.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">&#8216;My cousins&#8217;<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>In June 1605, <strong>John Graham, Earl of Montrose<\/strong> wrote to the English commissioners who were busy deporting reiver Grahams and basically stealing their lands and possessions.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<em>Although you have determined to transport <strong>certain of my cousins<\/strong> to Newcastle on Saturday night, there to remain in ward, I entreat you to permit <strong>Richard Graham, son of Walter of Netherby<\/strong>, to remain with me. I will be answerable for him to the King, to the Council, and to you.<\/em>&#8220;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Whatever DNA they shared, or didn\u2019t, Montrose considered the Netherby Grahams to be kin.<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Conclusion<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Personally, I don\u2019t have any sense of belonging to any group from the Stone Age. Who does?!<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Neither the surviving records, nor DNA testing, can 100% for sure fill in the gaps between living Grahams and people from the 1500s (or earlier)<\/strong>.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p>Whether my John Graham was a descendant of Lang Will\u2019s lot, the Netherby lot, the noble lot, or simply of some farmer who\u2019d thrown his lot in with the reiver clan and taken the name, I remain none the wiser.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But perhaps it doesn\u2019t matter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In the 1500s, there was a reiver clan called Graham, comprising Lang Will\u2019s Scottish gang and \u2018another sort\u2019 on the English side of the border. While further up in Scotland, there were Graham earls and lords, who played important roles in the history of that nation, and who counted the border Grahams as kin. And there were farmers and \u2018poor cottagers\u2019 and others who rode as their footsoldiers and took their protection, and name, and were loyal to the clan. (Except when fighting each other!).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It wasn\u2019t neolithic haplogroups that bound them together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It was the name.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that remains far more relatable, far easier to share loyalty to, than 1\/3 of the male population of Denmark.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center\">Footnote:<br><strong>You can find my book <em>The Story of the Border Grahams, chiefest actors in the spoil,<\/em><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.co.uk\/dp\/B0GWX7CHQK\">here<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Grahams of Cumberland part 3: The DNA thing In part one, I started out with \u2018my\u2019 John Graham, born c1750. While assuming we are descended from the border reiver Grahams, a couple of lovely relatives long wondered if there was any chance \u2018our Grahams\u2019 were connected somehow to the great names of Menteith and Montrose. [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":2684,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[2,447,448],"tags":[438],"class_list":["post-2683","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-family-history","category-grahams","category-reivers","tag-dna"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.4 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Grahams of Cumberland DNA - Cumbrian Characters<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Can DNA solve the puzzle of where the Grahams of Cumberland came from? 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